k: you christians and your dang non-secular holidays i walked to proudfoot to get some bread earlier, after checking opening times on google, but it was closed due to easter because easter's a totally valid public holiday that affects everyone regardless of religion, obviously p: We're always told Christians just nicked the Eostre festival (which was at the actual equinox, so, no) - so I blame the nonChristians, and especially the worshippers of Mammon. k: whoever's fault it is, i don't think everything should close because of a religious holiday if the country is as religiously diverse as it is i'm all for people celebrating their holidays but i don't think businesses should close for easter unless they're specifically observing the holiday, which i very much doubt any chain stores like proudfoot are p: That's up to them, surely? Nothing to stop a muslim firm closing on Fridays. k: >unless they're specifically observing the holiday by which i mean things like easter bank holidays shouldn't be a thing though i'm of the opinion that bank holidays are fucking ludicrous anyway banks need to open MORE, not less p: Until I was about 28, shops had to close on Sundays. You could buy essentials but not luxuries. But the rules were over-thunk, and it turned out you could buy a copy of Penthouse but not a bible; you could buy sweets but not carrots. k: i'm 100% in favour of persons observing holidays, but when it begins to impact my ability to buy food from a chain store, i think i have a right to object p: Ten years before that, each town had an early closing day. Closed one afternoon or morning a week, for stocktaking. k: and for them not to even update their opening times to reflect it, so i didn't find out until i'd already walked all the way there, that's just unprofessional p: Yes, the website is inexcusable. k: i hate it when shops close on a bank holiday last time i checked, shops aren't banks p: It means businesses can't bank their takings. It's a legal thing meaning no trading. Special bank holidays have been ordered in the past specifically to halt trading for a day when the markets were too volatile. They once woke up the Queen at 4am to declare one. k: i think the sunday trading law should be abolished shops should be able to open whenever they want for as long as they want p: Ok It's a redundant thing now, I agree. k: i'm in favour of freedom of religion, which means i think the country should be secular and not influenced at all by the church of england for other religious groups like muslims to be accepted, we need to move away from a religious "majority" in legal aspects otherwise we end up with a load of persecution due to instututionalised christian-based viewpoints, even if people aren't christian i don't mean to suggest christians are persecuting muslims, i'm saying that things like christian influence in the law (sunday trading, for example), fosters a false sense of "this is how things are done here" in order for us to grow as a society, we need to be able to adapt to diversity so being a secular state is a good way to foster that kind of perspective and i think christians like you and dino, and i'm sure the majority of christians in the country no matter what denomination, can probably appreciate that really well it's kind of a "good samaritan" thing, really; looking at people of differing beliefs as valid and supporting them no matter your own convictions which is something the UK sadly lacks; all the islamophobia shows that pretty plainly p: For secular, read atheist. There has to be some religious basis for a society, becausr the continuation of society depends on as moral trust framework. Maybe that's atheist, but there is one. Britain happens to have a Christian basis, but protestant and diverse and tolerant. Not many other ideologies are so tolerant. k: being religious isn't necessary for being a morally good person p: It defines what Good might mean. k: so does being non-religious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bIys6JoEDw i don't necessarily stand behind kant, but this shows a possible viewpoint that disregards religion re: morality p: Atheism is a religion k: no, it isn't. "belief in, recognition of, or an awakened sense of, a higher unseen controlling power or powers, with the emotion and morality connected therewith" atheism: "disbelief in the existence of a god" p: An atheist definition of religion. Like buddhism? k: no, paul, the definition of religion i found in "The New Imperial Reference Dictionary". p: :-O Still k: you can't have it both ways xD p: Technically, there's only one religion. Everything else is a superstition. It's a superstition that there is no god. 🙂 k: and yes, some would argue that buddhism is an atheist religion atheism and religion are not mutually exclusive but atheism itself is not a religion "atheist" and "religious" are not antonyms p: I don't distinguish between a religion and an ideology. There's no objective difference. k: yes there is p: What then? k: an ideology is simply a belief system not all belief systems are religious capitalism is an ideology all religions are ideologies but not all ideologies are religions but at this point, you're just arguing semantics i don't care how you choose to define atheism, religion, ideology, superstition etc. that has no bearing on the beliefs either of us hold respectively p: We both are. Religion = belief system = existential ideology k: the fact that you have to specify "existential" implies not all ideologies are existential therefore not all ideologies are religions i fail to see your point, though my bottom line is that i think people should be free to hold any ideology and practice any religion - or lack thereof - of their choosing, and the government should reflect our right to do so by maintaining a secular state and your argument against that was to suggest that religion is necessary to develop a moral theory which i then disproved and then you began to argue semantics p: Society is run according to a governing philosophy. If it's liberal Christianity we believe in tolerance. If it's Wahabi Islam, we believe in throwing homosexuals off towers. If it's Communist Atheism, we believe humans are just a bag of chemicals, and it's OK to shoot them in the head and throw their bodies down salt mines. If it's Secularism, we think religion is something you pick off a menu, there is no objective truth, and people who place their silly religious beliefs before their civic duty should be punished. k: that's very reductionist p: Mm. k: secular just means politics without religious influence p: It never works out like that though k: and granted, there is no "one-size-fits-all" philosophy available you're right, it doesn't, but neither does what we have now p: If you said Disestablishmentarianism, I'd agree. k: "secular" is easier to type i'm anti-government as a whole, i don't think we need politics at all and need i remind you that my main concern is trying to get bread on easter sunday? i don't think easter is silly, but i think the government is silly for preventing a buddhist from buying food because of it as for "civic duty", where's the civic duty that the government has to provide goods to its citizens? without sunday trading laws, a lot more places would be open and people could buy food or even medicine if they need it i bet all the pharmacies are closed too p: They liberalised the law years ago. If Proudfoots is closed, it's because they want to be. k: they "relaxed" the law slightly p: There's bread kits on the table if you're feeling adventurous k: but i seem to recall telling you that it's the institutional precedent that it sets if the law never changes to fully reflect areligious opening times, places will continue to close needlessly on sundays and stuff if shops close on a sunday, people come to expect shops to close on a sunday so if shops decided to open on a sunday, people would not come because there's a precedent for shops to be closed on a sunday but just because things are this way, it doesn't mean that it's the way things should be p: But this is, after all, a traditionally Christian country. Not secular. The Queen sits under a crown of crosses. 24 bishops sit in Parliament. An Archbishop declares the decease of the Monarch and calls a Council of Accession. k: "it's just the way it's done" is the worst excuse for a tradition yes, and i would like that to not be the case that is my entire argument the country SHOULD be secular BECAUSE "tradition" isn't working for anyone who isn't a liberal christian it's all well and good for you, of course, you have chocolate anyway, i'm clearly not getting my point across, so i'm gonna continue playing Oxygen Not Included